Topics

CARTIER x POUL


 

Hi Mark,

Now, this file seems to be 99% clear with the marriage in Grostenquin and the births of Mathias and Claude in Kirviller.
Just 1% doubt about Anna POUL : she is supposed to be born on 26/8/1712 in Albestroff; so she was 45 years old when Claude is born !!!
I attach a chart with what I know about this POUL family. Thanks to Bill and Glenn for their help!

Another question, for me, is to understand why Henri CARTIER & Anne emigrated to Banat. They were old people yet in 1770.
But it seems that they didn't travel alone. Their cousins Pierre HOUSNIARD (HUSNIARD, HUNIARD) & Marie BILL(I)ON probably left too; 3 of their children born in Kirviller lived and died in Triebswetter or Marienfeld.

And last point interesting about Henri CARTIER's ancestors : before living in Lorraine the are originated from Picardy (La Flamengerie). They went to Lorraine at the end of the Thirty Years's war.
There is many family like this in Lorraine but in a few cases only we find the village of origin in Picardy and genealogical information there.
Flamengrie is also a place of history: the cease-fire of the Great War (14-18) resounded there on 7 November 1918, in the hamlet of Haudroy.
The story of the CARTIER family is therefore a beautiful story that I will try to write and publish on the Facebook group "Lorrains du Banat". I will send you the project as soon as it is ready.

Au plaisir,

Daniel
"Lorrains du Banat"
LORRAINS du BANAT
gw.geneanet.org







De : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io> de la part de Daniel Hilaire <danielhilaire@...>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 mai 2020 16:45
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>; Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>; William Knuttel <wknuttel@...>
Objet : Re: [banat] CARTIER x POUL
 
Oups!


De : Daniel HILAIRE <danielhilaire@...>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 mai 2020 11:25
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>; Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>; William Knuttel <wknuttel@...>
Objet : CARTIER x POUL
 
Bonjour à tous,

Copie de l'acte de mariage, le 8/11/1735 à Grostenquin.

Daniel HILAIRE
"Lorrains du Banat"


De : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io> de la part de William Knuttel <wknuttel@...>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 mai 2020 04:12
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>; Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>
Objet : Re: [banat] Sankt Hubert Lookup - Poul...maybe some more help
 
Mark,

Just did a quick search on geneanet.  Check out these two links:



These researchers are clearly looking at the same family--perhaps they're stuck on the Anne Poul issue, but it might be worth contacting them.  And, beyond that, I'm sure their is much more to be found.  One thing I saw was that Henri's birth was listed as 1712 in nearby Le Val-de-Gleblange and not Kirviller...perhaps a clue as to where to look for church records.

Bill

William Knuttel
Arcana, LLC, dba the wines of:
William Knuttel/Knuttel Family/Ottimino/Tentadora
Winery: 21684 Eighth Street East, Suite 600, Sonoma, CA 95476
Mailing: P.O. Box 10787, Napa, CA 94581
707-326-8234 cell
707-938-7548 fax
wknuttel@...

www.williamknuttel.com

www.ottimino.com

On May 28, 2020 at 8:55 PM William Knuttel <wknuttel@...> wrote:

Mark,

With this more detailed info you provided me, we can perhaps figure out a few things--and maybe others on the list can offer more help.

First, entry 1528 in the Kuehn St. Hubert book matches your info: Heinrich Kardie, with sons Mathias and Claudius and no name for the wife.  There is a note that the family emigrated from Lothringen to Wien, arriving Nov 1770, with 4 persons in the party (Wilhelm-Kallbrunner page 136 line 64).  So it's clear that Henri Cartier/Kardie married well before emigrating.

Based on the birth dates of the sons, we can estimate that the wife would have been born no later than 1736 or 1737, and if is was that late she would have been much younger than Henri, since he died 15 Dec 1780 at 73 years old in Charleville (therefore born ca. 1707).  This is quite possible, of course, and perhaps it was a second marriage? 

If so, that could work with the only entry I found to match your conjecture that the wife remarried in St Hubert.  There is an Anna Pouleng at entry 3015.  She is a widow at the time of her marriage to Johann Schmit on 28 Apr 1794 in St. Hubert, and she dies in St Hubert on 7 Feb 1809 at 59 years old.  That implies a birth date of ca. 1750, which of course is too late...but I have found these ages at death to often be very unreliable, so who knows?  By the way, the place of birth is indicated: Vitoncourt, "France Lothringen" (i,.e. Lorraine).  If this is actually "Vittoncourt," then that village is only 10 to 12 miles from Kirviller.

I've checked under many, many variants of the name Poul (with both letters P and B), and Kartie (all the variants with C and K), in both the main lists and the wives lists.  But the only entry to come close is the one listed above.  The later St Hubert family book has nothing of promise, either, but generally does not deal with individuals from this early on.

Let me know if you want the scan(s) from the family book and I'll send tomorrow.

Good luck!

Bill

Your info:
I'm looking for Anne Poul, born near Kirviller, Lorraine around 1715.

I found a Henri Cartier (born 1712) in Kirviller married to Anne Poul, who had sons Mathias (born 1755) and Claude (born 1757).  There are many similarities between this family and the Henri Cartie who settled in Charleville, so I am hoping to confirm that they are a match by also placing his wife in Sankt Hubert.  My theory could be completely wrong in which case Anne Poul may not appear in the book, but I'm hoping to find record of her death and/or remarriage.  I'm assuming she would be listed under her maiden name (or possibly remarried name) as there is no record of Henri Cartie's wife in the book.

Thanks!

William Knuttel
Arcana, LLC, dba the wines of:
William Knuttel/Knuttel Family/Ottimino/Tentadora
Winery: 21684 Eighth Street East, Suite 600, Sonoma, CA 95476
Mailing: P.O. Box 10787, Napa, CA 94581
707-326-8234 cell
707-938-7548 fax
wknuttel@...

www.williamknuttel.com

www.ottimino.com

On May 27, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...> wrote:

Hello,

Would anyone be able to assist me with a lookup in the Sankt Hubert Familienbuch for the surname Poul (variants Poulle, Pouhl, Boul)?

Thanks,
Mark

 

 


Richard Mueller
 

Hello Mark, Bill, Glenn, Joe and Daniel,

The information in this thread has been an incredible find for me for my ancestry research! I can’t thank you all enough for your help, guidance and information since I seriously started my ancestry research for my STICH maternal line in December 2019!

With help from Joe, Bill and Glenn, I was able to break through a brick wall and discover that Henri CARTIER is my 7XGGF. Henri’s son Matthias’ granddaughter Margaretha Wilhelm married my direct maternal ancestor Josef STICH who along with his father Johann STICH and mother Margaretha VEAN were original settlers from Albersreit, Bavaria.

It was Joe’s initial advice to focus on Maria Wilhelm’s line (for whom he provided me with the Kühn FB extracts) which identified Heinrich KARDIER (WK 136/64) (shown as Heinrich KARTJE / Heinrich KARDIE in the Kühn FB) and which I deduced could actually be correctly named Henri CARTIER based on his Lorraine i.e. French origins and a phonetic pronunciation of his surname which didn’t sound very German to me i.e. KARTJE=CARTIER). Daniel then provided the link to Henri CARTIER's family tree showing his sons Matthias and Claudius and so the link to my tree was confirmed! Bill then then provided the links to Henri CARTIER’s ancestry showing his birthplace (and correcting his birthdate to 1712 from what I had as 1707) and going back two further generations.

Now with Mark’s original question, Daniel and Bill have provided an incredible amount of new information about Henri CARTIER including his birthplace, his wife and my 7XGGM Anna POUL (who was missing from the KW list and Kühn FB), his wedding location and date (with marriage certificate), his family tree going back two further generations and the Cartier family’s origins in the Picardy area.

Daniel,

I was actually preparing to contact you to ask for your help to find more details about Henri CARTIER (birthplace and further background) so thank you for providing them with this email thread!

I am very much looking forward to seeing your story about the CARTIER family on the Lorrains du Banat FB group! Being born and raised in Canada, I wonder if I may be distantly related to the descendants of the famous explorer Jacques CARTIER who discovered and claimed Canada for France in 1534? Of course, he was born in St. Malo in the Bretagne in 1491, but who knows? Or maybe I am distantly related to the descendants of Louis-François CARTIER who founded the famous luxury goods empire, but I am sure that’s even more of a stretch…. :-)

May I ask you where you found the marriage certificate for Henri CARTIER? Would you be able to translate it somehow? It is very difficult to read. Could you possibly type out the French text which I could then put through Google Translate? Would you be able to somehow send a higher resolution version, which I could then print and frame?

You raise a very good question, why such an old couple would take such a dangerous journey to a new land at such an advanced age.

Glenn or Bill,

Would you please send me the Stader entries for Heinrich KARDIER (WK 136/64) and also the Stader or W&K entries for Johann STICH (if you can find him, he would have gone through Vienna around 1788 to 1790 I would guess). I have copied my person email address herewith.

Mark,

I guess all this could mean that we are distantly related i.e. something like 8th or 9th cousins?

Once again, thank you all for your help!

Regards,

Rick Mueller

On 30. May 2020, at 08:38, Daniel Hilaire <@lorrainsdubanat> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Now, this file seems to be 99% clear with the marriage in Grostenquin and the births of Mathias and Claude in Kirviller.
Just 1% doubt about Anna POUL : she is supposed to be born on 26/8/1712 in Albestroff; so she was 45 years old when Claude is born !!!
I attach a chart with what I know about this POUL family. Thanks to Bill and Glenn for their help!

Another question, for me, is to understand why Henri CARTIER & Anne emigrated to Banat. They were old people yet in 1770.
But it seems that they didn't travel alone. Their cousins Pierre HOUSNIARD (HUSNIARD, HUNIARD) & Marie BILL(I)ON probably left too; 3 of their children born in Kirviller lived and died in Triebswetter or Marienfeld.

And last point interesting about Henri CARTIER's ancestors : before living in Lorraine the are originated from Picardy (La Flamengerie). They went to Lorraine at the end of the Thirty Years's war.
There is many family like this in Lorraine but in a few cases only we find the village of origin in Picardy and genealogical information there.
Flamengrie is also a place of history: the cease-fire of the Great War (14-18) resounded there on 7 November 1918, in the hamlet of Haudroy.
The story of the CARTIER family is therefore a beautiful story that I will try to write and publish on the Facebook group "Lorrains du Banat". I will send you the project as soon as it is ready.

Au plaisir,

Daniel
"Lorrains du Banat"
https://gw.geneanet.org/lorrainsdubanat_w
LORRAINS du BANAT - Geneanet
LORRAINS du BANAT
gw.geneanet.org






De : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io> de la part de Daniel Hilaire <@lorrainsdubanat>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 mai 2020 16:45
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>; Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>; William Knuttel <wknuttel@...>
Objet : Re: [banat] CARTIER x POUL

Oups!

De : Daniel HILAIRE <@lorrainsdubanat>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 mai 2020 11:25
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>; Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>; William Knuttel <wknuttel@...>
Objet : CARTIER x POUL

Bonjour à tous,

Copie de l'acte de mariage, le 8/11/1735 à Grostenquin.

Daniel HILAIRE
"Lorrains du Banat"
https://gw.geneanet.org/lorrainsdubanat_w

De : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io> de la part de William Knuttel <wknuttel@...>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 mai 2020 04:12
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>; Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>
Objet : Re: [banat] Sankt Hubert Lookup - Poul...maybe some more help

Mark,

Just did a quick search on geneanet. Check out these two links:

https://gw.geneanet.org/fpruvost?n=cartier&oc=&p=henri

https://gw.geneanet.org/alainmh?n=cartier&oc=&p=henri

These researchers are clearly looking at the same family--perhaps they're stuck on the Anne Poul issue, but it might be worth contacting them. And, beyond that, I'm sure their is much more to be found. One thing I saw was that Henri's birth was listed as 1712 in nearby Le Val-de-Gleblange and not Kirviller...perhaps a clue as to where to look for church records.

Bill

William Knuttel
Arcana, LLC, dba the wines of:
William Knuttel/Knuttel Family/Ottimino/Tentadora
Winery: 21684 Eighth Street East, Suite 600, Sonoma, CA 95476
Mailing: P.O. Box 10787, Napa, CA 94581
707-326-8234 cell
707-938-7548 fax
wknuttel@...
www.williamknuttel.com
www.ottimino.com

On May 28, 2020 at 8:55 PM William Knuttel <wknuttel@...> wrote:

Mark,

With this more detailed info you provided me, we can perhaps figure out a few things--and maybe others on the list can offer more help.

First, entry 1528 in the Kuehn St. Hubert book matches your info: Heinrich Kardie, with sons Mathias and Claudius and no name for the wife. There is a note that the family emigrated from Lothringen to Wien, arriving Nov 1770, with 4 persons in the party (Wilhelm-Kallbrunner page 136 line 64). So it's clear that Henri Cartier/Kardie married well before emigrating.

Based on the birth dates of the sons, we can estimate that the wife would have been born no later than 1736 or 1737, and if is was that late she would have been much younger than Henri, since he died 15 Dec 1780 at 73 years old in Charleville (therefore born ca. 1707). This is quite possible, of course, and perhaps it was a second marriage?

If so, that could work with the only entry I found to match your conjecture that the wife remarried in St Hubert. There is an Anna Pouleng at entry 3015. She is a widow at the time of her marriage to Johann Schmit on 28 Apr 1794 in St. Hubert, and she dies in St Hubert on 7 Feb 1809 at 59 years old. That implies a birth date of ca. 1750, which of course is too late...but I have found these ages at death to often be very unreliable, so who knows? By the way, the place of birth is indicated: Vitoncourt, "France Lothringen" (i,.e. Lorraine). If this is actually "Vittoncourt," then that village is only 10 to 12 miles from Kirviller.

I've checked under many, many variants of the name Poul (with both letters P and B), and Kartie (all the variants with C and K), in both the main lists and the wives lists. But the only entry to come close is the one listed above. The later St Hubert family book has nothing of promise, either, but generally does not deal with individuals from this early on.

Let me know if you want the scan(s) from the family book and I'll send tomorrow.

Good luck!

Bill

Your info:
I'm looking for Anne Poul, born near Kirviller, Lorraine around 1715.

I found a Henri Cartier (born 1712) in Kirviller married to Anne Poul, who had sons Mathias (born 1755) and Claude (born 1757). There are many similarities between this family and the Henri Cartie who settled in Charleville, so I am hoping to confirm that they are a match by also placing his wife in Sankt Hubert. My theory could be completely wrong in which case Anne Poul may not appear in the book, but I'm hoping to find record of her death and/or remarriage. I'm assuming she would be listed under her maiden name (or possibly remarried name) as there is no record of Henri Cartie's wife in the book.

Thanks!
William Knuttel
Arcana, LLC, dba the wines of:
William Knuttel/Knuttel Family/Ottimino/Tentadora
Winery: 21684 Eighth Street East, Suite 600, Sonoma, CA 95476
Mailing: P.O. Box 10787, Napa, CA 94581
707-326-8234 cell
707-938-7548 fax
wknuttel@...
www.williamknuttel.com
www.ottimino.com

On May 27, 2020 at 10:42 PM Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...> wrote:

Hello,

Would anyone be able to assist me with a lookup in the Sankt Hubert Familienbuch for the surname Poul (variants Poulle, Pouhl, Boul)?

Thanks,
Mark


<POULs.pdf>


Mark Zajac
 

Hi Daniel (and anyone else who may be interested in this line),

I finally solved the mystery of Henri Cartier's wife Anne Poul.  She was there in the Sankt Hubert church records all along, but never made it into Kuhn's book!  Her death record is listed on June 29, 1783 in Charleville House Number 20, which was where the Cartier/Kartye family lived.  Her birthplace appears to be "Nine-ville" in German Lorraine, but perhaps it is "Kire-ville"?  This should clear up any remaining doubts that the Cartier family from Kirviller did settle in Charleville!



Best regards,
Mark


 

Hi Mark,

Great sleuthing!  I’m on the road for a few days, but will hunt around later in the St. Hubert book to see how she was listed...perhaps as Orell(in)?

Cheers,

Bill


On Nov 9, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...> wrote:

Hi Daniel (and anyone else who may be interested in this line),

I finally solved the mystery of Henri Cartier's wife Anne Poul.  She was there in the Sankt Hubert church records all along, but never made it into Kuhn's book!  Her death record is listed on June 29, 1783 in Charleville House Number 20, which was where the Cartier/Kartye family lived.  Her birthplace appears to be "Nine-ville" in German Lorraine, but perhaps it is "Kire-ville"?  This should clear up any remaining doubts that the Cartier family from Kirviller did settle in Charleville!

<dummyfile.0.part>


Best regards,
Mark


 

Très bon boulot, Mark !
I updated our file "Lorrains du Banat" on Geneanet :
Anne POUL is with a lot of cousins in Lorraine as much as in Banat. So your work will be interesting many people.
Thanks to you and to Bill.

Another interesting detail. One of Anne's cousin, Christine POUL, married Pierre DESHUMEUR in Grostenquin. Pierre is borh in Picardy in a village very close to La Flamengerie where the CARTIER family is originated. This confirm that several people from Picardy migrated to Lorraine after the Thirty Years War. And some "Lorrains du Banat" are in fact "Picards du Banat". Genealogy is never finished....

Daniel


De : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io> de la part de Mark Zajac <mazajac97@...>
Envoyé : mardi 10 novembre 2020 03:57
À : everybody@banat.groups.io <everybody@banat.groups.io>
Objet : Re: [banat] CARTIER x POUL
 
Hi Daniel (and anyone else who may be interested in this line),

I finally solved the mystery of Henri Cartier's wife Anne Poul.  She was there in the Sankt Hubert church records all along, but never made it into Kuhn's book!  Her death record is listed on June 29, 1783 in Charleville House Number 20, which was where the Cartier/Kartye family lived.  Her birthplace appears to be "Nine-ville" in German Lorraine, but perhaps it is "Kire-ville"?  This should clear up any remaining doubts that the Cartier family from Kirviller did settle in Charleville!



Best regards,
Mark