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STADER LOOKUP REQUEST – KILTZER

Ron
 

Hi everyone,

I was hoping I could get a Stader lookup for my ancestor – Johann Philipp Kiltzer : born 14 March  1700 from Ebschied who settled in Jahrmarkt – in about 1748 – died in Jahrmarkt 13 March 1771 .

 

I’ve just seen an example page from one of the Stader books and it even includes the source folio number of the record in Wien!

 

I was wondering is someone could tell me the information that is there for his entry in Stader.

 

His surname is written as Kiltzer in the Jahrmarkt Ortsippen buch, but appears to be Koeltzer when he was baptised and his ancestors had it written (according to other peoples family trees), as Külzer).

So I guess it might be under anyone of the three :  Kiltzer (Kilzer) / Koeltzer / Külzer.

If someone could take the trouble to look, I’d really appreciate it.

 

Thank you

 

Ron 😊

Ron
 

.. Apologies for typing in uppercase, it looks like I'm yelling.

Ron :)

Dave Dreyer
 

Ron,

 

Did you ever get a reply to your query?

 

I do not find a Philipp Kiltzer in the Wien registrations.  You can get a CD containing all the W-K abstractions of the Wien registrations from the AKdFF at a modest price.

The Stader entry contains data taken from (1) the first tentative Jahrmarkt family book, also by Stader, and (2) data for Philipp Kiltzer in Junginger’s more recent Jahrmarkt family book but apparently contains no data from registration in Wien.  

Incidentally there was an important Kiltzer family among the initial North Dakota Banater home settlers.

 

Dave Dreyer

 

 

From: Ron
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:06 PM
To: everybody@banat.groups.io
Subject: [banat] STADER LOOKUP REQUEST – KILTZER

 

Hi everyone,

I was hoping I could get a Stader lookup for my ancestor – Johann Philipp Kiltzer : born 14 March  1700 from Ebschied who settled in Jahrmarkt – in about 1748 – died in Jahrmarkt 13 March 1771 .

 

I’ve just seen an example page from one of the Stader books and it even includes the source folio number of the record in Wien!

 

I was wondering is someone could tell me the information that is there for his entry in Stader.

 

His surname is written as Kiltzer in the Jahrmarkt Ortsippen buch, but appears to be Koeltzer when he was baptised and his ancestors had it written (according to other peoples family trees), as Külzer).

So I guess it might be under anyone of the three :  Kiltzer (Kilzer) / Koeltzer / Külzer.

If someone could take the trouble to look, I’d really appreciate it.

 

Thank you

 

Ron 😊

 

Ron
 

Hi Dave,

 

Many thanks for looking.

 

Someone was kind enough to tell me what the Stader entry states for Philipp Kiltzer.

I did see the source was an earlier book by Stader 1985 (which I don’t have).

Another list member kindly told me about the 1913 monograph by Franz Demele - history of Jahrmarkt, Temesgyarmat, which I suspect may be one of the sources Stader used in his 1985 book, as it lists the families who arrived between 1740-1751 .

 

Stader has Philips' arrival in Jahrmarkt as 1749, Franz Junginger (in an article on the Jahrmarkt website) has it as 1748-1752.

 

His year of arrival appears to be amongst the first lot of the Zweiter Schwabenzug 1748-1753 (although I’ve read various exact dates for that).

I was looking the Österreichischen Staatsarchiv out of curiosity  - there appear to be Banater Akten records from 1745 onwards (if i’m not looking at the wrong thing).

 

I wonder why he isn’t in W-K ? I will follow up purchasing the CD as so many of my other ancestors will probably be in it, (I wonder if anyone else from the 1748 timeframe appears in it).

I did read about the Kilzer brothers in North Dakota, (I think it was in an article you wrote).

 

 

On the name Kilzer, I did read an entry on the Jahrmarkt website regarding someones 80th birthday and it mentioned that her Kilzer husband had ancestors that came from Kilzertal in Hunsrück … ... (my first reaction was ......you mean like “Waltons Mountain” ? – if you remember the tv show).

 

Anyway I had a closer look in the region around Ebschied and it turns out there are place/s called Külz / Alt Külz / Külzbach / Osterkülzbach and historically many place names there ended in - külz.

 

Today in the Simmern region there are still many Külzer, north of Kaiserslautern there are many Kölzer.  So it seems there really was a “Kilzer Valley”.

 

Many thanks again for your assistance,

 

  

Ron

Ron
 

Correction.... I meant north of Kastellaun not Kaiserslautern.

Apologies. :) 

Dave Dreyer
 

Ron,

 

If I may, a couple of comments on the beginnings of Banat family history research.

 

One cannot be sure that all the registration records of Banaters as they passed through Wien survived especially from earlier periods.  Moreover, an unknown fraction of settlers to the Banat traveled overland rather than by the Donau.  Records for these overlanders were not available to W-K and, so far as I know, do not exist at present.

 

The list of the original Jahrmarkt settlers could have come about in another way. 

The Nazi’s had a thing about tracking down the origin of all the Auslanddeutsch.  This even includes Germans who immigrated to places like Chile.  The initial goal was to establish the place of origin of these immigrants.   The Banat figured to a large degree in this effort and was centered in the Auslands Institut in Stuttgart.  Because of unpleasant, unrelated,  aspects of this organization the name was changed after the war but it still exists in Stuttgart with changed research emphasis and is readily accessible.  In any event, a Friedhelm Treude under the sponsorship of the Institute went to the Banat, probably in 1940 or 1941 with a digital camera to film the Banat church books(KBs).  The purpose was to film the records which covered data on all the original settlers.  Thus, he filmed the first KBs and subsequent books until the last of the initial settlers died.  He completed filming the last book for the place even though the last death occurred before the end of the book.  These last books usually occurred around 1835-1845.  This film survived the war and was sized by the U. S. authorities at the end of the war.  After sitting on the film in Washington for a couple of years(Hard to document this period-------but that would lead to another story) the film was returned to the German authorities and was made generally available.  Thus, a set is in the Mormon Library in Salt Lake as well as probably other places.  With a few exceptions this was all the records which were available under the Romanian communists.  As a result people who wanted to research their Banat families were generally faced with what they knew in a hand-me-down way, about 1890, with a 30-40 year gap until the end of Treude’s film.   

When Banaters in Germany began to take an interest in systematic family history work all they had was Treude’s film.  Thus the early Banat family history books mostly cover a period of the establishment of the village up to ca 1850-------See the five books by Josef Kuhn, and  addition books on Hatzfeld, Pardan, Modosch, Kathreinfeld etc.  An early Jahrmarkt family book by Stader was one of these based on Treude’s film.  Thus the initial list of the Jahrmarkt settlers could have come from Stader’s work which, in turn, came from the Jahrmarkt KBs.   

 

I can strongly recommend Anton Kraemer’s autobiography “Vom Banat an den Rhein” in which he discusses the beginning of organized Banat family history research in Germany and the efforts to gain access to records.  Tony and I spent a number of pleasant afternoons sitting in beer gardens while he told me wild stories on efforts to get KB records out of Romania while under the communists.          

 

Dave Dreyer   

 

 

From: Ron
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 10:45 PM
To: everybody@banat.groups.io
Subject: Re: [banat] STADER LOOKUP REQUEST – KILTZER

 

Hi Dave,

 

Many thanks for looking.

 

Someone was kind enough to tell me what the Stader entry states for Philipp Kiltzer.

I did see the source was an earlier book by Stader 1985 (which I don’t have).

Another list member kindly told me about the 1913 monograph by Franz Demele - history of Jahrmarkt, Temesgyarmat, which I suspect may be one of the sources Stader used in his 1985 book, as it lists the families who arrived between 1740-1751 .

 

Stader has Philips' arrival in Jahrmarkt as 1749, Franz Junginger (in an article on the Jahrmarkt website) has it as 1748-1752.

 

His year of arrival appears to be amongst the first lot of the Zweiter Schwabenzug 1748-1753 (although I’ve read various exact dates for that).

I was looking the Österreichischen Staatsarchiv out of curiosity  - there appear to be Banater Akten records from 1745 onwards (if i’m not looking at the wrong thing).

 

I wonder why he isn’t in W-K ? I will follow up purchasing the CD as so many of my other ancestors will probably be in it, (I wonder if anyone else from the 1748 timeframe appears in it).

I did read about the Kilzer brothers in North Dakota, (I think it was in an article you wrote).

 

On the name Kilzer, I did read an entry on the Jahrmarkt website regarding someones 80th birthday and it mentioned that her Kilzer husband had ancestors that came from Kilzertal in Hunsrück … ... (my first reaction was ......you mean like “Waltons Mountain” ? – if you remember the tv show).

 

Anyway I had a closer look in the region around Ebschied and it turns out there are place/s called Külz / Alt Külz / Külzbach / Osterkülzbach and historically many place names there ended in - külz.

 

Today in the Simmern region there are still many Külzer, north of Kaiserslautern there are many Kölzer.  So it seems there really was a “Kilzer Valley”.

 

Many thanks again for your assistance,

 

  

Ron

 

Ron
 

Hi Dave,

 

Thank you very much for the background, it does answer some questions I had.

Specifically regarding the Jahrmarkt microfilms : I had noticed re the Jahrmarkt KB’s that whilst the “slate” image at the start of each microfilm roll states filmed in 1971 in Ludwigsburg, the start page for each individual church book within the roll -  ie; “Geburten buch 1752-1769”, appears to be a picture of the outside of large envelope – and the images that follow look like printed pages (with markings - dots and ticks), next to most entries. It had seemed to me that what was microfilmed in Germany in 1971, weren’t the original church books, but printed copies of each page of the books.

I had read the other day about the 1940 microfilming of church books in Banat – but I wasn’t sure whether photographic prints would have been common at that time.  It turns out that the idea of photographing books (microfilm/microform) goes back as far as the 1870’s … banks in the US were microfilming cheques (and presumably making prints when required), in the 1930’s… so this now makes sense to me… it seems that in 1971 LDS microfilmed the original printed pages (with markings) that had been made from the 1940-41 microfilms in the 1940’s.

 

The Stader entry for Johann Philipp Kiltzer does state “ab 1749” from 1749, which I now take to mean is based on the his first appearance in the Jahrmarkt church books, his eldest son married there in 1749 (incidently, to someone from another family that Franz Demele has also listed as arriving in the same time period).  The Jahrmarkt website states that 11 families from Lothringen arrived around that time, I did read somewhere else that sometimes new arrivals in the Banat were also accompanied by a priest.

 

I wonder if the colonists themselves also departed in larger groups (with a priest) – which would have been notable in the history of the locality they departed from. Interestingly, I did see in someone elses Kilzer family tree (which seems to be for someone in Simmern), an entry for the same Philipp Kiltzer that has no death date, but does state “nach Ungarn”.

 

My mother has told me anecdotally that when someone left a parish area they had to advise their priest where they were going and when they arrived their arrival was also registered in the new parish.

 

If this is so, I wonder if the parish arrivals were recorded in a special church book, or somewhere amongst the existing church books.

 

I have been looking at some FEEHS journals and found a reference to a pastor issuing a moving certificate – and the new arrival then registering in the new parish although I’m not sure whether this was a Lutheran only practice or whether the Catholic church had the same practices.

 

There was also a booklet published in 1996, "Die deutsche Besiedlung der Banater Großgemeinde Jahrmarkt – Jarmatha - in den Akten des Hofkammerarchivs Wien", which I’m going to get it appears to focus on documents in Vienna and Timisoara between 1760 and 1770. I know this is later but may also have some interesting facts included.

 

I also found in the bibliography of another book, a list of the banater akten (including folios) that includes 1749 and earlier – as stader appears to start in 1749 – I haven’t given up yet 😊




Thank you for the recommendations, my list of books I need to read is getting bigger 😊

 

Many thanks again for your advice,

 

Ron

Dave Dreyer
 

Ron,

 

A couple of more comments.

 

It is very rare to find a definite birth date of the original settlers in Banat KBs.  There was no occasion to find them entered in the KBs.  Generally, in such cases, the birth date is estimated by substracting the age at death from the year of death.  Obviously this can vary by a couple of years.   Moreover it can be wildly off when the age is not accurately known.  In such cases one must find the birth records in the village of origin.

 

Someone who is better versed in church matters than I should address this but I have seen accounts where migrants have attached considerable importance to a document from the priest at the place of origin to the church at his new settlement.   So far as I know there was no separate account books tracking this paper work.  Several times I have found a letter which was left stuck between the pages of a KB(also filmed) requesting such documents.

 

Dave Dreyer

 

 

 

 

From: Ron
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 7:34 PM
To: everybody@banat.groups.io
Subject: Re: [banat] STADER LOOKUP REQUEST – KILTZER

 

Hi Dave,

 

Thank you very much for the background, it does answer some questions I had.

Specifically regarding the Jahrmarkt microfilms : I had noticed re the Jahrmarkt KB’s that whilst the “slate” image at the start of each microfilm roll states filmed in 1971 in Ludwigsburg, the start page for each individual church book within the roll -  ie; “Geburten buch 1752-1769”, appears to be a picture of the outside of large envelope – and the images that follow look like printed pages (with markings - dots and ticks), next to most entries. It had seemed to me that what was microfilmed in Germany in 1971, weren’t the original church books, but printed copies of each page of the books.

I had read the other day about the 1940 microfilming of church books in Banat – but I wasn’t sure whether photographic prints would have been common at that time.  It turns out that the idea of photographing books (microfilm/microform) goes back as far as the 1870’s … banks in the US were microfilming cheques (and presumably making prints when required), in the 1930’s… so this now makes sense to me… it seems that in 1971 LDS microfilmed the original printed pages (with markings) that had been made from the 1940-41 microfilms in the 1940’s.

 

The Stader entry for Johann Philipp Kiltzer does state “ab 1749” from 1749, which I now take to mean is based on the his first appearance in the Jahrmarkt church books, his eldest son married there in 1749 (incidently, to someone from another family that Franz Demele has also listed as arriving in the same time period).  The Jahrmarkt website states that 11 families from Lothringen arrived around that time, I did read somewhere else that sometimes new arrivals in the Banat were also accompanied by a priest.

 

I wonder if the colonists themselves also departed in larger groups (with a priest) – which would have been notable in the history of the locality they departed from. Interestingly, I did see in someone elses Kilzer family tree (which seems to be for someone in Simmern), an entry for the same Philipp Kiltzer that has no death date, but does state “nach Ungarn”.

 

My mother has told me anecdotally that when someone left a parish area they had to advise their priest where they were going and when they arrived their arrival was also registered in the new parish.

 

If this is so, I wonder if the parish arrivals were recorded in a special church book, or somewhere amongst the existing church books.

 

I have been looking at some FEEHS journals and found a reference to a pastor issuing a moving certificate – and the new arrival then registering in the new parish although I’m not sure whether this was a Lutheran only practice or whether the Catholic church had the same practices.

 

There was also a booklet published in 1996, "Die deutsche Besiedlung der Banater Großgemeinde Jahrmarkt – Jarmatha - in den Akten des Hofkammerarchivs Wien", which I’m going to get it appears to focus on documents in Vienna and Timisoara between 1760 and 1770. I know this is later but may also have some interesting facts included.

 

I also found in the bibliography of another book, a list of the banater akten (including folios) that includes 1749 and earlier – as stader appears to start in 1749 – I haven’t given up yet 😊


Thank you for the recommendations, my list of books I need to read is getting bigger 😊

 

Many thanks again for your advice,

 

Ron

 

Fran Matkovich
 

An example of families arriving in the Banat with a priest is
 in the Deutsch Zerne website at the link freepages.rootsweb.com/~deutschzerne/genealogy/Files/page2.html .  The village of Hatzfeld was founded by a group of settlers led by Father Sebastian Plenkner.

Fran Matkovich


On Jun 30, 2020, at 9:34 PM, Ron <ronthiel10@...> wrote:



Hi Dave,

 

Thank you very much for the background, it does answer some questions I had.

Specifically regarding the Jahrmarkt microfilms : I had noticed re the Jahrmarkt KB’s that whilst the “slate” image at the start of each microfilm roll states filmed in 1971 in Ludwigsburg, the start page for each individual church book within the roll -  ie; “Geburten buch 1752-1769”, appears to be a picture of the outside of large envelope – and the images that follow look like printed pages (with markings - dots and ticks), next to most entries. It had seemed to me that what was microfilmed in Germany in 1971, weren’t the original church books, but printed copies of each page of the books.

I had read the other day about the 1940 microfilming of church books in Banat – but I wasn’t sure whether photographic prints would have been common at that time.  It turns out that the idea of photographing books (microfilm/microform) goes back as far as the 1870’s … banks in the US were microfilming cheques (and presumably making prints when required), in the 1930’s… so this now makes sense to me… it seems that in 1971 LDS microfilmed the original printed pages (with markings) that had been made from the 1940-41 microfilms in the 1940’s.

 

The Stader entry for Johann Philipp Kiltzer does state “ab 1749” from 1749, which I now take to mean is based on the his first appearance in the Jahrmarkt church books, his eldest son married there in 1749 (incidently, to someone from another family that Franz Demele has also listed as arriving in the same time period).  The Jahrmarkt website states that 11 families from Lothringen arrived around that time, I did read somewhere else that sometimes new arrivals in the Banat were also accompanied by a priest.

 

I wonder if the colonists themselves also departed in larger groups (with a priest) – which would have been notable in the history of the locality they departed from. Interestingly, I did see in someone elses Kilzer family tree (which seems to be for someone in Simmern), an entry for the same Philipp Kiltzer that has no death date, but does state “nach Ungarn”.

 

My mother has told me anecdotally that when someone left a parish area they had to advise their priest where they were going and when they arrived their arrival was also registered in the new parish.

 

If this is so, I wonder if the parish arrivals were recorded in a special church book, or somewhere amongst the existing church books.

 

I have been looking at some FEEHS journals and found a reference to a pastor issuing a moving certificate – and the new arrival then registering in the new parish although I’m not sure whether this was a Lutheran only practice or whether the Catholic church had the same practices.

 

There was also a booklet published in 1996, "Die deutsche Besiedlung der Banater Großgemeinde Jahrmarkt – Jarmatha - in den Akten des Hofkammerarchivs Wien", which I’m going to get it appears to focus on documents in Vienna and Timisoara between 1760 and 1770. I know this is later but may also have some interesting facts included.

 

I also found in the bibliography of another book, a list of the banater akten (including folios) that includes 1749 and earlier – as stader appears to start in 1749 – I haven’t given up yet 😊


<dummyfile.0.part>


Thank you for the recommendations, my list of books I need to read is getting bigger 😊

 

Many thanks again for your advice,

 

Ron